Dinoflagellates Taking Over
- Thread starter paul_wash
- Start date
I have been struggling with a dinoflaggellate outbreak for about 2 months it is starting to win. This setup is 1.75 years old.
Readings:
dKh: 6.4
pH: 8.0 night / 8.2 day
NaCl: 1.025
Ca: 390
NO3: < 10 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
PO4: < .03
Temp: 75 nighttime, 78 daytime
Mg: 1335
System Setup:
125 gallons main, Right & Left overflows
~300 lbs live rock
90 gallon sump with 42 gallons H2O
In-Line UV Sterilizer
In tank Protein Skimmer
Deionizer to Kalk chamber to float valve for top off
3 175 watt halides
2 Blue actinic VHOs
spinner bar over DLS (the DLS is officially a calcium cake – very little water flow through)
crushed coral substrate (no greater than 1 inch)
Grounding in both sump and main
Trace Elements/Additives/Maintenance
DT’s PhytoPlankton
Eco-Systems Reef Solution
ESV B-Ionic 2 part
ESV Kalkwasser
30% water change every 1-2 months
VHOs on from 9 AM to 9 PM
Halides on from 12 noon to 7:30 PM
What I have tried:
I have tried three times unsuccessfully to beat the dinos by a 2 day complete lights out, stopping trace element additions (for about a week), and pH increase to ~8.4 during the day and ~8.2 at night via manual Kalkwasser additions. Herein is the root of my problem, slow dripping the Kalkwasser does not raise the pH by any noticeable amount. Dumping more Kalkwasser will increase the pH to around 8.4, but without continuously dumping, it drops back to ~8.2 or less within an hour. An observation: the more Kalk I add, the lower my pH will be in the long term. It will, of course increase to the appropriate level following addition, but the long term effect seems to through everything out of whack, hence a lower level in the weeks to come.
So to no avail after 2 days I uncover the tank (used a tarp to keep ambient light out), get the lights back on a gradually increasing photoperiod, and get back on the normal Ca/Alkalinity addition schedule. Currently, I have stopped adding trace elements for fear of enhancing the growth. The dinos, of course, are still in high gear – the worst I have ever seen them and they are everywhere now.
Overall, the corals don’t seem to mind – although I did lose a porites and an elegance coral 2.5 weeks after the last “attempt to fix” event. I have a high degree of coralline algae growth on rocks (under the dinos of course), but 0% coverage on glass and overflows. And to qualify the coralline algae growth, I probably have as much death as growth, so it almost balances out. I’ve given up on getting my tank to look like those tanks with the coralline algae growth covering the walls, pumps, etc (maybe that is really a curse). And a really interesting note is the bottom of the sump (where I add additions) has a high degree of coralline growth but only in half! And if that isn’t interesting, that portion of my sump is covered with clear plexi, under a normal fluorescent light in my basement!
So, back to my original question, how do I get rid of these dinos?
Readings:
dKh: 6.4
pH: 8.0 night / 8.2 day
NaCl: 1.025
Ca: 390
NO3: < 10 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
PO4: < .03
Temp: 75 nighttime, 78 daytime
Mg: 1335
System Setup:
125 gallons main, Right & Left overflows
~300 lbs live rock
90 gallon sump with 42 gallons H2O
In-Line UV Sterilizer
In tank Protein Skimmer
Deionizer to Kalk chamber to float valve for top off
3 175 watt halides
2 Blue actinic VHOs
spinner bar over DLS (the DLS is officially a calcium cake – very little water flow through)
crushed coral substrate (no greater than 1 inch)
Grounding in both sump and main
Trace Elements/Additives/Maintenance
DT’s PhytoPlankton
Eco-Systems Reef Solution
ESV B-Ionic 2 part
ESV Kalkwasser
30% water change every 1-2 months
VHOs on from 9 AM to 9 PM
Halides on from 12 noon to 7:30 PM
What I have tried:
I have tried three times unsuccessfully to beat the dinos by a 2 day complete lights out, stopping trace element additions (for about a week), and pH increase to ~8.4 during the day and ~8.2 at night via manual Kalkwasser additions. Herein is the root of my problem, slow dripping the Kalkwasser does not raise the pH by any noticeable amount. Dumping more Kalkwasser will increase the pH to around 8.4, but without continuously dumping, it drops back to ~8.2 or less within an hour. An observation: the more Kalk I add, the lower my pH will be in the long term. It will, of course increase to the appropriate level following addition, but the long term effect seems to through everything out of whack, hence a lower level in the weeks to come.
So to no avail after 2 days I uncover the tank (used a tarp to keep ambient light out), get the lights back on a gradually increasing photoperiod, and get back on the normal Ca/Alkalinity addition schedule. Currently, I have stopped adding trace elements for fear of enhancing the growth. The dinos, of course, are still in high gear – the worst I have ever seen them and they are everywhere now.
Overall, the corals don’t seem to mind – although I did lose a porites and an elegance coral 2.5 weeks after the last “attempt to fix” event. I have a high degree of coralline algae growth on rocks (under the dinos of course), but 0% coverage on glass and overflows. And to qualify the coralline algae growth, I probably have as much death as growth, so it almost balances out. I’ve given up on getting my tank to look like those tanks with the coralline algae growth covering the walls, pumps, etc (maybe that is really a curse). And a really interesting note is the bottom of the sump (where I add additions) has a high degree of coralline growth but only in half! And if that isn’t interesting, that portion of my sump is covered with clear plexi, under a normal fluorescent light in my basement!
So, back to my original question, how do I get rid of these dinos?
Your parameters look great to me, but sometimes they are misleading due to nutrients having already been binded to organisms (e.g. dinoflaggellates). What would be my main concern is still nutrients since nutrients are always the common denominator when it comes to dino blooms. Using activated carbons, some more water changes (while siphoning out as much of the dinos as you can), and increasing skimming are all good forms of nutrient export. Make sure the water you're adding is nutrient-free such as RO/DI water, and I'd review your additive and feeding schedule to make sure you aren't over-dosing/feeding. Perhaps cut back on the DTs in the meanwhile (your corals will be just fine without it).
In October's AAOLM, the chemistry article gave an interesting suggestion that adding Iron might reduce dinos and cyano by encouraging diatom growth. I much rather have diatoms then cyano or dinos.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
Here's two past articles in our libraries that might lend additional insight.
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail2.html
I've battled this multiple times and it tends to come around when I made radical changes to my system. When I upped my lighting to a 250 watt Iwasaki halide, I had a nasty bloom. Happened again when I replace my halide after 18 months of usage.
It tends to be brought upon by increased nutrient levels IME. Manual removal, water changes, increased skimming, running activated carbon, dripping the kalkwasser *directly into* the skimmer all seemed to help.
I would stop using:
DT’s PhytoPlankton
Eco-Systems Reef Solution
ESV B-Ionic 2 part
and use strictly kalkwasser for your calcium/alkalinity. You'll probably have to increase your evaporation with fans and whatnot, but it worked for me. I had switched from kalk to B-Ionic and after a while I noticed that I was starting a dino bloom. I fought it for a while and then I switched back to 100% kalkwasser and within a week I started noticing a slight reduction in dino's. After a month I had turned the tide and it was receeding.
What skimmer are you using anyhow? That would be one other place I'd look for fixing the problem.
Shane
It tends to be brought upon by increased nutrient levels IME. Manual removal, water changes, increased skimming, running activated carbon, dripping the kalkwasser *directly into* the skimmer all seemed to help.
I would stop using:
DT’s PhytoPlankton
Eco-Systems Reef Solution
ESV B-Ionic 2 part
and use strictly kalkwasser for your calcium/alkalinity. You'll probably have to increase your evaporation with fans and whatnot, but it worked for me. I had switched from kalk to B-Ionic and after a while I noticed that I was starting a dino bloom. I fought it for a while and then I switched back to 100% kalkwasser and within a week I started noticing a slight reduction in dino's. After a month I had turned the tide and it was receeding.
What skimmer are you using anyhow? That would be one other place I'd look for fixing the problem.
Shane
The Fe factor sounds intriguing - my diatoms have subsided considerably since the dinos started. I haven't been adding anything except the Ca/Alk additives and the Kalk. Trying to create that "nutrient poor" situation.
I have made some changes since the bloom has really kicked in -- it is probably the combination of several things. About 3 months ago I replaced my blue actinic VHOs with a new set. I have also been using less kalk and more b-ionic b/c I couldn't raise the Ca/Alk with kalk alone. This is due to my low evaporation rate, whereas the system was not getting enough kalk. Root cause of the evaporation rate is due to keeping the sump covered and the cooling fans off. Another observation is the porites and the elegance coral died at the same time and were rotting pretty badly -- the skimmer kicked into high gear and started removing a ton of gunk. So maybe this rot provided even more nutrition for the dinos...
So the next step to squash these nasty things:
* 20% water change this week and another next week
* turn fans on to increase evaporation rate, thereby increasing kalk flow
* leaving the sump covered for now - its in the basement and occasional plaster nugget/horse hair doesn't do well in the tank!
I think I may bypass the Fe addition for now to avoid adding any more fuel to the fire...
Now, liquid, you say to stop using DT's & Reef Solution - is this altogether or until the bloom subsides? I have actually noticed a difference in coral extensions with these additions compared to without...
The skimmer is good a memory lapse is preventing me from remembering the details of it - I'll get you the brand/specs when I get home tonight.
I have made some changes since the bloom has really kicked in -- it is probably the combination of several things. About 3 months ago I replaced my blue actinic VHOs with a new set. I have also been using less kalk and more b-ionic b/c I couldn't raise the Ca/Alk with kalk alone. This is due to my low evaporation rate, whereas the system was not getting enough kalk. Root cause of the evaporation rate is due to keeping the sump covered and the cooling fans off. Another observation is the porites and the elegance coral died at the same time and were rotting pretty badly -- the skimmer kicked into high gear and started removing a ton of gunk. So maybe this rot provided even more nutrition for the dinos...
So the next step to squash these nasty things:
* 20% water change this week and another next week
* turn fans on to increase evaporation rate, thereby increasing kalk flow
* leaving the sump covered for now - its in the basement and occasional plaster nugget/horse hair doesn't do well in the tank!
I think I may bypass the Fe addition for now to avoid adding any more fuel to the fire...
Now, liquid, you say to stop using DT's & Reef Solution - is this altogether or until the bloom subsides? I have actually noticed a difference in coral extensions with these additions compared to without...
The skimmer is good a memory lapse is preventing me from remembering the details of it - I'll get you the brand/specs when I get home tonight.
Oh, one other thing that really helped me was that I did about two to three 25% waterchanges every week for the first two weeks during the reduced photoperiod. That seemed to make a dent in them IIRC.
If you don't want to stop using the DT's or Reef Solutions, then significantly reduce the amount you use until the bloom subsides and then slowly increase the dosage again. My experience has been that adding things like DT's, B-Ionic, etc that provide a lot of different trace elements and nutrients have caused me grief in the past. It might be because of my woefully under powered skimmer. Dunno. The big thing is getting the nutrient levels down by reducing input into your system somehow. Also, the kalk additions directly to the skimmer will allow phosphates to be skimmed out more effectively thru your skimmer, which is a definite plus.
Shane
If you don't want to stop using the DT's or Reef Solutions, then significantly reduce the amount you use until the bloom subsides and then slowly increase the dosage again. My experience has been that adding things like DT's, B-Ionic, etc that provide a lot of different trace elements and nutrients have caused me grief in the past. It might be because of my woefully under powered skimmer. Dunno. The big thing is getting the nutrient levels down by reducing input into your system somehow. Also, the kalk additions directly to the skimmer will allow phosphates to be skimmed out more effectively thru your skimmer, which is a definite plus.
Shane
Well, I'm on my way. I have increased evaporation, adding only kalk, and the pH is staying up there now that the kalk is going in at a higher rate.
Another question, something I have always wondered about is this DLS and spinner. Seems like they are good for initial setup to cycle faster. My tank is 1.75 years old -- seems like my live rock should be doing enough of the cycling. (NO3: < 10 ppm , NO2: 0 ppm ).
Of course, maybe these readings are low b/c the dinos are eating them up...Did I mention I also seem to be getting little patches of short stubby "hair" algae? Geez, I thought I was passed these annoyances at this point (sorry, I'm bitter)...
If my Ca cake (DLS) is rock solid and there is very little water flowing through it, is it really doing anything? I have maintained it every 5 months or so, taking it out, squishing it in a separate salt water bin, and then putting it back in. It has just gotten nearly impossible to do this b/c it is so hard. Guys from the LFS recommended putting another DLS in, in conjunction with the existing one to get the new one up to par and then removing the old one, soaking it, and cleaning it up. Basically, switching them every 2 years or so.
So could this Ca cake (DLS) be "stripping" out my additives for Ca and Alk? Creating deposits on the DLS that keep attracting more and more of the additives, thus removing them from the water? Just a thought since there is such a large amount of build up on the DLS and not really anywhere else. I have a MAK4 pumping from the sump to the main, so there is quite a bit of turnover through the DLS...
Another question, something I have always wondered about is this DLS and spinner. Seems like they are good for initial setup to cycle faster. My tank is 1.75 years old -- seems like my live rock should be doing enough of the cycling. (NO3: < 10 ppm , NO2: 0 ppm ).
Of course, maybe these readings are low b/c the dinos are eating them up...Did I mention I also seem to be getting little patches of short stubby "hair" algae? Geez, I thought I was passed these annoyances at this point (sorry, I'm bitter)...
If my Ca cake (DLS) is rock solid and there is very little water flowing through it, is it really doing anything? I have maintained it every 5 months or so, taking it out, squishing it in a separate salt water bin, and then putting it back in. It has just gotten nearly impossible to do this b/c it is so hard. Guys from the LFS recommended putting another DLS in, in conjunction with the existing one to get the new one up to par and then removing the old one, soaking it, and cleaning it up. Basically, switching them every 2 years or so.
So could this Ca cake (DLS) be "stripping" out my additives for Ca and Alk? Creating deposits on the DLS that keep attracting more and more of the additives, thus removing them from the water? Just a thought since there is such a large amount of build up on the DLS and not really anywhere else. I have a MAK4 pumping from the sump to the main, so there is quite a bit of turnover through the DLS...
The question I would ask, aside from those already asked, is how old your MH bulbs are. I had a horrible hair algae problem for 6 months, and I realized that my lights were a year old. That's about how long they last. I changed them, and a few weeks later, it was just gone. My family asks me where it all went, and I just can't answer that! 
You said you changed your actinics, but maybe your MH's are old. Different wavelengths and all.
The other think I would reiterate is what kind of water you are adding. RO is really best. With dinoflagellate and/or diatom outbreaks, silicates are usually the problem. Unfiltered water adds that in abundance.
Those are my thoughts. Good luck!
Sara
You said you changed your actinics, but maybe your MH's are old. Different wavelengths and all. The other think I would reiterate is what kind of water you are adding. RO is really best. With dinoflagellate and/or diatom outbreaks, silicates are usually the problem. Unfiltered water adds that in abundance.
Those are my thoughts. Good luck!
Sara
Dinos are disappearing quickly...Doing another water change tomorrow...
Good thought! The MHs are about 1 1/2 yrs old right now. Picking up new ones tomorrow...Its funny but the hair algae clumps are actually picking up pace since I've reduced my photoperiod to destroy the dinos. I'll let you know if new MHs knock 'em down.
I use a deionized water - I religiously reactivate the resins (never run any water though exhausted ones) - however, my carbon resin is looking quite yellow, so I will get a new one...
My PO4 is non-existent, assuming that is also measuring organic PO4 too. So I am assuming that the deionized water I am producing is nutrient poor...
So, we are thinking scrap the DLS? DSB - seen references - is that the sand bottom thingy that is supposed to grow your "good bacteria" - like another sump? My LFS really pushes the DLS, so I will probably have a hard time getting any good advice on this matter except from here. Enlighten me please. (sorry got so much tweaking going on, that my mind is full and doesn't feel like research right now)...
Good thought! The MHs are about 1 1/2 yrs old right now. Picking up new ones tomorrow...Its funny but the hair algae clumps are actually picking up pace since I've reduced my photoperiod to destroy the dinos. I'll let you know if new MHs knock 'em down.
I use a deionized water - I religiously reactivate the resins (never run any water though exhausted ones) - however, my carbon resin is looking quite yellow, so I will get a new one...
My PO4 is non-existent, assuming that is also measuring organic PO4 too. So I am assuming that the deionized water I am producing is nutrient poor...
So, we are thinking scrap the DLS? DSB - seen references - is that the sand bottom thingy that is supposed to grow your "good bacteria" - like another sump? My LFS really pushes the DLS, so I will probably have a hard time getting any good advice on this matter except from here. Enlighten me please. (sorry got so much tweaking going on, that my mind is full and doesn't feel like research right now)...
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