DENITRATOR?

[tinyreef]

y'know it occurred to me later that 10-gal./day isn't a "drip". that's like 1/8" tubing flowing at gravity siphon, at least it sounds like that. i usually equate a "drop" around 0.1-ml (rough).

8-hour shift? do you mean you intend to turn it off for 16-hour/day? you'll suffocate the bacteria. 8O

I mean, do you need the bacteria in the tube, too?

that is the denitrating bacteria. it's a coil denitrator, right? the length of tubing that is the "coil" is where the denitrification occurs.

if it's a different type (i think aquamedic had one and maybe tunze?) then it's their "reactor chamber". anyway you slice it, it's the anaerobic space with surface area for the denitrating bacteria.

you may have to clean some of it if it gets too clogged. cleaning out all of it is like scrubbing clean bioballs/biowheels. it kinda defeats the whole purpose. otoh, you can't let it get too overgrown, i.e. affecting the flow rate.

i believe that's why the "chambered" denitrators work better/easier than "coil" types. but coil types are much easier to make. even a diy idiot like me could do it (probably improperly tho).

drip-rate depends. sorry, but that really is the answer. (see my prior reply)

 

[WRASSER]

Ok, Im sorry, I have it on a timer and at this moment it is set at 12 hr. delays. I would like to get it to every 8 hrs. So i started at every 24 hrs. it would dump 5 gals. now i am at every 12 hrs. it dumps 5 gals. and i would like it to dump 5 gals. every 8 hrs. The tubing is the feed tube, How often should i clean this tube? thanks

 

[tinyreef]

nothing to be sorry about. :wink:

you can't run the denitrator like that though. you'll suffocate or starve the bacteria. it's kinda like running a fluidized bed filter on a timer, the bacteria crashes.

but your description puzzles me a little. are you "dumping" the wastewater completely? it sounds like you're just removing 5-gal. rather than "treating" it thru the denitrator.

also, your flow-rate sounds high with 5-gal./8-hours or day or whatever. when i was running denitrators it was about 1-drop/sec. which translates into about 2-gal./day. (based upon my personal rough drop ~ 0.1ml estimate).

please don't take that rate to heart though. it might be good, it might not. i'd hate to have something happen (badly) on a misinterpretation (it's happened before, d'oh!). hth

 

[Anonymous]

Saw a thread once for a automatic unit that measured orp then dumped the water when a certain value was reached. It also was extremely expensive.

Sound kinda like what you are attempting to do.

I hope you get it working.

And I'll still have some chaeto for you free when you decide to try the refugium.

 

[WRASSER]

LOL This is kinda of funny because i havent told you everything and you are trying to figure it out. OK, it is on a timer, i have a 5 gal. sump. i have a pump in the 5 gal. sump circulating the water that is being fed, i also have a pump in my wet-dry that pumps water into the 5 gal. sump. so, when the timer goes off the pump in the wet-dry goes on for a half-hour pumping water into the 5 gal. sump. As that is happening there is an over flow that puts the water that is already been denitrated back into the wet-dry. After that half hour is over, then the timer changes and the 5 gal. sump is fed the food. I started at 24 hrs. and now im cycling every 12 hrs. and i am working towards every 8 hrs.

 

[WRASSER]

Am i doing somethig wrong :?:

 

[Anonymous]

Oh I'm sorry. I was just speculating and thinking outloud. Quess it's just the engineer in me. I like to try to fugure things out, analyze, and think up designs/solutions. some good, some bad, some ugly but the design/problem solving process is interesting.

I simply can not advise if you are doing something wrong because I have never operated a denitrator.

My experience is with plant life. Which not only bring nitrates down to unmeasureable levels, but also consume ammonia, phosphates, carbon dioxide plus bioaccumulate toxins as well. Just a better way in my book.

 

[Anonymous]

But plant life like corraline or turf algae on live rocks, glass, sand, etc also consume nitrates.

As you can see, corraline really took off in Bob's tank.

 

[Anonymous]

And of course nitrates are 0-5 ppm and have been for many months. And the tang and open brain have been in the tank for over two years now.

All with a $10 egg crate,$20 worth of lights, and $5 worth of macros and no adjustments necessary. And without live rock live or even aragonite sand.

Wrasser, I hope you get it working and are happy with the result. But when you get tired of fiddling with it, I will still be here with the macro. I would rather you make use of it then toss it in the garbage.

 

[tinyreef]

Am i doing somethig wrong :?:

denitrators should not be run on a timer imo.

the bacteria will suffocate or starve just like that on a biowheel or bioballs. from what you said previously, it sounds like you're letting it run dry for 8~16 hrs. each day. (at least that's my interpretation of your words, i may be wrong)

a denitrator should be run constantly. a drip/coil denitrator, definitely should be run constantly.

a chambered/reactor denitrator probably too (from what i remember, i've run both but had marginally more success with the coil). i don't remember all the "rules" for the reactor-type.

there's a plate-type too, iirc. it runs with a denitrating media. it should be submerged and media replaced often. i don't even know if they're offered anymore. another german company, iirc.

so really, all three types (that i know of) are not to be operating intermittently. maybe the media type can be, i thought the claim to their denitrating was strictly a chemical reaction (but often claims aren't all they're cracked up to be).

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps I misunderstood.


I thought he was just allowing the water to remain in the denitrater for hours then flushing it out. Not letting it run dry. I thought the idea was to let the anaerobic bacteria build up for some time then flush the denitrated water out. then repeat.

 

[tinyreef]

bob,
how often do you clean that overflow or is it new? it's spanking clean compared to the rest of the tank. just an observation (no snideness intended).

actually, i run my system very similar to your advocated methods (a tad dirty ) but i've moved away from heavy algae scrubbing in recent years. i've seen better reaction from the corals (softie dominant tanks). there are other factors, of course.

just curious what you see growth-wise coralline and nuisance algae based on that overflow picture.

 

[tinyreef]

I thought he was just allowing the water to remain in the denitrater for hours then flushing it out. Not letting it run dry. I thought the idea was to let the anaerobic bacteria build up for some time then flush the denitrated water out. then repeat.

i mistyped myself there.

dry or stagnant water yields the same thing.

the water in a coil denitrator needs to be flowing. the low rate is to allow the nitrifying bacteria a chance to use up the O2 in the "typical" water column. the length of the coil allows for denitrifying bacteria to colonize toward the end to act on the nitrate for their O2 requirements.

too fast a flow, the denite's are too oxygenated. too slow, and the water is stagnant (O2 cycle actually begins again, i believe). 8-hour residence time is too long. we're talking seconds to a minute (tops) residence time. anything longer than that is just stagnancy.

 

[Anonymous]

bob,
how often do you clean that overflow or is it new? it's spanking clean compared to the rest of the tank. just an observation (no snideness intended).

And none taken. I do clean the overflow weekly when I rinse out the oyster shells. And it does manage to blend in by the end of the week. Hair algae and cyano are both almost totally limited to the eggcrate and refugium area behind the eggcrate. Cyano does build up then reduce when I harvest the macros. Most of the dark area in the rocks is the dark color of the rocks. They are covered with a very thin algae with some almost totally covered with a light green corraline.

actually, i run my system very similar to your advocated methods (a tad dirty ) but i've moved away from heavy algae scrubbing in recent years. i've seen better reaction from the corals (softie dominant tanks). there are other factors, of course.

just curious what you see growth-wise coralline and nuisance algae based on that overflow picture.

I have (pink) corraling growth on the front glass I have to scrape off every week. If I let it go for a couple of weeks that builds up to a couple of 10"x3" areas on the glass. Also have new spots on the diy filter box in the sump/refug. Several rocks are now freckled with spots of pink corraline on the flat upper surfaces.

Obviously things are happening slowly but they are happening. And meanwhile fish and corals have been in the tank for over two years now. thanks for the interest and sorry if we hyjacked the thread.

 

[WRASSER]

No the 5 gal.tank is always full of water. It gets flushed out with tank water and the water that has been denitrated is fushed backed into the tank. then the new water or dirty how ever you want to say it is fed food for 60 mins. Then it sits for twelve hours til the next flush. I do have bacteria growing in the 5 gal. sump that is being fed.So every 12 hrs. the sump is fed food and all day the sump is deniritfying the water. I hope i am saying it right.

 

[tinyreef]

ok, i kinda understand now. it's kinda like an internal water-change with water that's supposedly lower in nitrate content but otherwise the same as the main system's, right?

have you tested the "sump" water to see if it's lower in nitrate content than the main system's? i guess you can do it that way. a bit unconventional, kinda like a delayed surge container, i guess.

more LR/LS or macro/micro algae (for bob) in the "sump" would also work too imo.

 

[WRASSER]

Yes, that is the words, a small water change every 12 hours, 10 gals. a day. Now i want to go to 15 gals. a day. Is 15 gals. enough a day/ I know it is a 10% water change, will i be able to do a water change every day to catch up and bring the nitrates down by doing it every day?

 

[tinyreef]

in theory, it should work. if the denitrator does its job on the partitioned or separated 5-gal sump on each "cycle".

are you seeing significantly lower nitrates when you test the "sump" at the end of each "cycle". a little lower doesn't necessarily mean the denitrator's working. remember, denitrifying bacteria is ubiquitous. so it would develop in the sump, regardless.

without the bioload, present in the main system, continually generating nitrates (among other things) the self-contained sump should naturally see a slight dip in nitrates anyways. a significant lowering could be indicative of the denitrator working.

in all that, i've forgotten what type of denitrator you are using. coil or reactor? just test the effluent either way and it should read very little nitrates compared to the display system. hth

 

[WRASSER]

Yes on the 24 hr. rotation i tested til it was 0. Then when it was at 0 at the 12 hr mark i then changed the times to 12 hrs. I have only let the water change happen at 0, nothing else. so hopefully it will come down. When i get the money i will do a large water change to assist in 0 nitrates. so we will see.

 

[tinyreef]

sounds good then, it's your basic dilution solution for pollution. now 10x fast.